What If You Took the Risk? Physician Entrepreneurship & Change with Dr. Jimmy Turner | Ep16

Michael Hersh, MD

 [00:00:00] What if one simple question could completely change the way you see your future? That's exactly what happened the first time I spoke with today's guest. He's a physician, coach, author, podcaster, and someone who's played a pivotal role in my journey. Stick around because the question he asked me and the way he helped me answer it just might be exactly what you need right now.

Well, hey everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Better Physician Life Podcast. Today I am super excited to welcome Dr. Jimmy Turner to the show. He is a practicing academic anesthesiologist and associate professor at Wake Forest University School of Medicine, where he specializes in regional anesthesia and acute pain medicine beyond the clinical setting.

Jimmy is a certified coach who has helped tons of fellow physicians, including me, navigate things like burnout, mindset, and money. He's a hundred percent the reason we are sitting [00:01:00] here and chatting today. But wait, there's more. He's also the author of Determined How Burned Out Doctors Can Thrive in a Broken Medical System, and he co-hosts the podcast Money Meets Medicine, where he brings honest, practical conversations about personal finance into the physician space.

He's also a licensed insurance agent, helping physicians navigate the confusing process of disability insurance, and I could not be happier to have him here on the show today. Welcome, Dr. Jimmy Turner. Thanks so much, man. I'm super excited to be here. I know we've been trying to get this one on the books for a little bit, so couldn't be more excited.

Absolutely. It's quite a list of accomplishments. Did I leave anything out? I'm sure there are things you left out somewhere in there. I live a pretty crazy life most people ask me. Probably the most common question I get is like, how do you do all these things? and the answer is quite simply.

 I don't know. I dunno. I mean, to get to the bottom of that answer, people would have to ask our wives, right? Yeah. I mean, honestly, I like when people say they [00:02:00] married a better half. Like I legitimately did that. My wife is like a living saint. She's a substantially better human being than I am, and I am thrilled that she decided to call me her husband.

A hundred percent. Same. Same. Same. So you and I go way back. I was reading your work and listening to your podcast long before I signed up for physician coaching back in 2020, and I had already learned so much from you. but one of the most impactful moments actually came in our very first conversation.

We were talking about whether or not I was gonna sign up for physician coaching, and I was. Super skeptical. And honestly, I had pretty much already decided my answer was no. And then you asked me a question that made me stop and think, right? And that question was this: if you don't do this, what will change?

And up until that moment, I had a pretty firm belief that people don't change. But that one [00:03:00] simple question cracked the door open and made me see possibility in a way I hadn't really seen it before. Now, when I look at all you've done, your accolades, your pivots, your willingness to evolve, it seems pretty clear that this is something you've leaned into for a lot of your life.

Has this always been a part of who you are? Yeah, it's such a funny thing , first of all, I'll say, skepticism towards coaching is completely healthy. And I think that's where 99% of us start. So if you were listening to the show and you're like, I'm skeptical about this physician coaching, you're probably in the right spot.

And all of us that ended up getting into it from the client standpoint and then the coaching standpoint, we were skeptical to begin with too. So, completely healthy space to be. But to answer your question, no, and I'm kind of glad that I didn't always operate this way. So if I had found really what. It turned that, you know, key for me in my brain was entrepreneurship, and it was through entrepreneurship that I started learning lessons that nowhere else in life could I learn.

And so for me, I didn't experience entrepreneurship until [00:04:00] about six months after my fellowship in regional anesthesia. And so I'm really glad actually, that it turned out that way because if I had found entrepreneurship when I was in training, I don't know that I would've finished becoming a physician.

It's become a huge part of my identity, to be honest with you. and the way that I think about things and the way I think about the world and realize like, Hey, just because we do things a certain way and we've always done them that way, doesn't mean it has to continue to be that way.

And if you find a problem, then a solution is probably necessary. And it turns out that's often a really great business idea. And so for me, embracing change came. Through the process of starting a blog and then realizing, hey, it's probably not the best idea in the world for the dyslexic kid with a reading disability to have a blog you can't spell right.

And so I was like, ah, maybe podcasting was a better idea. 'cause it turns out that my voice is better than my writing. And people get to know and like, and trust you more if they hear your voice, then if they're reading your writing. And so it's been a constant evolution of finding. What I enjoy, what I'm good at, what I'm not good at.

Being honest about what brings me peace, what brings me happiness and fulfillment. And that is often at odds with what [00:05:00] other people think you should be doing. And so I have embraced change in all of the different aspects of authorship and podcasting and being in venture capitalism for a year, and personal finance and burnout and coaching for physicians.

All of that stuff has really just been about me trying to find my path. Trying during that process to enjoy the journey. 'cause ultimately for me, I was the classic arrival fallacy junkie where it's like, oh, if I do this, you know, the next thing, that's what's gonna make me happy . If I start a business and the business makes a hundred thousand dollars, like that's a big number, and then I'll help with me being able to cut back from medicine.

Because I was burned out in medicine and then I did that and it turns out it wasn't the answer. And I was like, well, maybe if I start a podcast or what if I, you know, get to this number in the business, or if I write a book and. Really all of it was a constant evolution to teach me that it's more important to focus on the process than the product.

You have to enjoy the journey. but I'm glad that I did embrace that. Because now it gives me the ability to face things and to make decisions without being scared that I'm gonna fall flat on the other [00:06:00] side. which is the constant fear most people have is getting started. Yeah, I noticed what you said when you were just mentioning this, is that it sometimes goes against what people think you should be doing.

Can you say a little more about that? Yeah, sure. and so, I mean, this is germane to the podcast and the topic at hand, right? So when I started coaching, I was probably the only male physician coach in the space that had a large audience. and so. Constantly, I was being told, oh, this is gonna be nothing but success for you.

You're gonna join the Two Comma Club, have a million dollar recurring revenue business, because you are a, male physician, which is unique to the space. Dudes need coaching too. Obviously all the women already were much smarter than us and knew that, from the get-go. And so, hey, you're just gonna succeed and so this is what you should do.

You should continue to build this business. And for me, I gotta the point where I was like, you know what? I really enjoy these conversations. I really enjoy writing about this stuff, thinking about this stuff. But like, I'm a content producer at the end of the day. Like, I love teaching. Like at the end of the day, I went into academics because I'm an academic.

I love educating other [00:07:00] people. And my special space is in content production and having conversations with people. Sometimes that means coaching, and sometimes it means just focusing on the educational aspect of stuff and like, how can I get this in front of more people? And so. Having people point at me and say, Hey, this is what you should do, because you can, and realizing that, oh, just 'cause I can, doesn't mean I should.

Those are different questions. really took me a long time to figure out and my journey taking that pivot actually didn't happen until I got into the venture capital back startup space and brought my personal finance brand. Into that. And, that ended my coaching business for the most part at that point.

And to be honest, when that happened, I was relieved. I was happy. I was like, you know what? This has been a monkey on my back for so long that everyone expects me to keep carrying and I don't wanna carry this thing anymore. And because I made that pivot, I just didn't have time for it. It forced me to make that change.

But yeah, that's probably the, most relevant example to this. You know, just 'cause you can, doesn't mean you should, is the [00:08:00] takeaway there that I learned from that? Well, I think this is really important because if you're listening and you don't own a coaching business, maybe you're thinking this isn't relevant to the life that we're living.

And, most physicians feel the exact same way about their medical careers, right? They, push through in certain aspects of their career because they think they should. There's this expectation about. What, you know, I've talked before about what a good doctor does. a good doctor, you know, shows up every day and does all of the things and closes their charts and sees, 30 patients a day and doesn't complain.

And all of these expectations of what other people think we should be doing in our medical careers. And it's fascinating to me to hear you talk about the same experience in the entrepreneurial space because it just goes to show, We're not immune to this, right? Like leaving one space or pivoting to a different space doesn't mean all of these problems or issues or concerns magically disappear.

They just show [00:09:00] up in a different way. Yeah. I think that in medicine, to your point, this is most common when physicians have the experience of having their altruism being taken advantage of, you know, to your point like, Hey, a good doctor does this. A good doctor does that. It took me a really long time to realize that.

And my wife has a saying, my wife has several just beautiful sayings that have profoundly impacted me. And she's not the person that came up with these things. She's just the one that I hear it the most from. but you know, the idea that like clear is kind, right? So that might mean setting expectations for people and being really clear about what those expectations are.

And that's actually not mean. It's not rude. You're not putting people off. You're just saying, Hey, like this is my expectation. For me, and this doesn't currently meet that, and so I'm not gonna do that. It's not a priority to me. Right? That's not mean. You're being clear. And so when we have this idea of like, what is a good physician and what is a good physician supposed to do, it's really easy to take advantage of that because really at the end of the day, you get to decide what a good doctor is, right?

Like this ideal that's pitched at [00:10:00] us, is pitched by other people, and you get to decide what that means for you and for me and my journey. Ultimately that was the problem, is that I just didn't spend enough time really thinking about what do I want? And I don't mean that from like a selfish standpoint, I mean like a lack of clarity standpoint.

I just didn't know. I just knew I was having success at these different things and I was dabbling in lots of different stuff. I didn't have enough time in the day to do all of those things. So some of them started getting done, not as well as I would've liked them, and really what I needed at the time and what that pivot basically required was for me to step back and say, what do I want?

It turns out for me, I like simplicity. I like being busy. I like being productive and I like things to be simple. I don't want to be, you know, in all of these different things. So I'm constantly getting involved in stuff and then asking myself, like, how can I refine this to make this more simple? Like maybe this thing that I decided I could do isn't really what I want to do.

It doesn't really fit the mold for what I have in my view for my life right now. But at the end of the day, I [00:11:00] think that most of us. Get put in that space because we are living up to someone else's ideal of what we should look like. And we haven't really spent enough time thinking about our own ideals of who we are and what our goals are and what our purpose is on this crazy thing called Earth .

And for me, it wasn't until I was forced to take that step back that I started having some of that realization. I think for a lot of us, that's when it happens. It is when we are forced to do it. Do you have any ways that you have found work for you in terms of checking in every once in a while to figure out if the stuff that you're doing still fits with the life that you want?

Any recommendations? Yeah. You know, for me, a lot of times, time, this really comes down to, and this isn't super scientific, and maybe not the most helpful, but. I think we all get a sense of a feeling that we are, and for me, the feelings often overwhelm and I'm sure that you talk about this, you know, on the show in terms of how completely unproductive that particular emotion is.

And for me, I get to a space of overwhelm. I'm like, I have all of these things to do when I [00:12:00] back up. I'm like, to your point, like, you know, if you keep doing the same things, the same things are gonna happen, right? I'm like, well, what is the alternative? The alternative in this situation is that I'd be bored.

For anybody that knows me, like I hate boredom more than I, I hate about just anything. I do not do well with it. Yes, that means I got lots of internal work that I need to do. I'm aware. But I hate boredom. I've always hated boredom. I like being productive. And so sometimes I'm like, you know what?

I'm okay living on this, like closer to the overwhelmed side of the spectrum because I know that I'd rather be busy than be bored. But for me there's definitely a clear point where it's like, okay, this is overwhelming enough that this is an issue. I now need to have goals. Thoughtful discussion with myself or with others to figure out, okay, you're doing seven things.

How many of these can we actually fit and do life well? And so for me it usually starts with a feeling. And that feeling is what causes me to take a deep dive. And they get clarity on, my hell yes, policies, I like to call it, right? And so I get really clear on what are the things that matter most to me.

So we were talking before we hit record about. Busy life and busy [00:13:00] schedules and you know, sometimes things at work aren't the way that I would love them to be. And, you know, corporate America and harmonization and all this stuff as my hospital has been acquired and merged and all the other things that have happened with, you know, consolidation in healthcare and some of that results in a job that I don't like certain aspects of and I have to back up and say, yeah, but the job that I have right now does provide some things on my hell Yes, policy that are.

Pretty high up there, like probably number one, which is I have more control over my time with my current job, despite some of the things that I don't love about it than I would with most anesthesia jobs. And so by stepping back and saying like, I know I don't like feeling overwhelmed. I know I don't like this current space that I'm in, but what are the good parts of what I'm doing right now, and what do I have to do to maintain that?

Right. And if it's like outside the list, like, well, in order to maintain your current schedule, you need to continue to do these three things. Like, okay, well, I guess. Those three things need to stay on this list for now because my number one priority is making it to baseball games and football practice [00:14:00] and flute and, all the stuff that my kids do and support my wife.

And so really it's getting super, super clear on what are my priorities and then what are the things that I need to do in my life that have to happen to make that be a possibility. Then I try to get rid of everything else, and I go through like this declutter phase. After I go through that process typically where I'm like, you know what?

I'm doing 10 things. I'm now doing four. And people are like, Jimmy, why aren't you doing that anymore? Like, you were really good at that. I'm like, because it doesn't fit right now. Maybe it will later, but it doesn't right now. Right. And so it's this constant reevaluation process that typically starts when I start to feel overwhelmed.

Yeah. And I think You call to mind A couple of very essential points here. Number one is that our minds are always geared towards what's going wrong and the negative and so easy to look at our jobs and see all the things that we don't like. And there's a lot of things that we do like, and I speak to this from personal experience about my own job and 

I'm frequently [00:15:00] reminding myself about all the things that I do enjoy, that I do like the reason why, you know, even five years into coaching, I'm still in the same job I've been in for over, 16 years now. And so mm-hmm. It is really making sure that we're always critically appraising. Right? Like, what's good also, right?

Like, what is working, And then you also brought up your Hell Yes. Policy, which I love and I read about in advance, but you just said it like everybody knows it. And I'd love for you to say more about that. 'cause I think it's critical. Yeah. So essentially it's the concept that. You need to get really clear on what your priorities are.

And where this came from for me was actually reading, a book called Essentialism, Greg McCune. And, in that book, he tells a story about basically how the word priority was originated. And I think it was in the 1700s, like the word priority. So think about a priori. Priority meant like the one thing above all others.

And at some point past the 1700s, we decided to try to make that word plural, as if you could have more than one thing in your life that was above all others. and [00:16:00] it's kind of snowballed from there, right? Where we all think, oh, I can juggle all of these balls in the air and they're all priorities.

And it's like, that's not really true. When you say yes to something, you're saying no to something else. And so we need to spend time making sure that things we're saying yes to are really like hell yes. And anything that doesn't make you say hell yes, you say no to right? And so for me. It's really drilling down into like what are the three to five things that are really most important and critical to me right now at this moment in my life.

I have a high schooler, a middle schooler, and an elementary school. Three different schools, three different physical locations for the next three years. and you know, it's like. For me, scheduling flexibility to like, make that zone defense work. My wife is a full-time educator.

She has a job, she works, she's amazing at it. Just one teacher of the year for the county. and so like I totally wanna support her career, but that also means that we have to play lots and lots of zone defense. And so for me that hell yes, policy, when I start thinking about what are the three to five things, it's like, okay, well number one is having flexibility in my schedule to allow for all of these other things in my life that matter [00:17:00] so much more than my job.

Like, I'm a God-fearing husband and father before I am anything else. And so that for me is like, okay, that's number one. And then, you know, there are a few other things that end up on that list, but basically, what ends up happening after you come up with those three to five things, and you could start with 10 and try to whittle it down, it can become hard going backwards.

'cause you're like, no, I absolutely can't take off number nine. It's like, well if you started with one, it'd be easier to get to three or five personally, I think. But that said, you're gonna find that. If you keep saying yes and that hell yes, policy keeps getting longer and longer and longer.

You're really saying no to things at the top of the list because you have too many commitments, you have too many things going on. But it also allows me to check back and say, okay, well if scheduling flexibility and autonomy over my personal time is the most important thing right now, then maybe I shouldn't go look for private practice jobs where I have quote unquote more professional autonomy.

'cause I'm, part of the group and the decision making there. Whereas as an employed physician, I'm not, Because that's not really gonna allow me to achieve that number one goal on my Hell yes. Policy list. And so the process of getting [00:18:00] really clear on what your priorities are, those things that really are above all others, that needs to be three things, maybe five if I'm being generous.

And then your job is to say no to anything else that doesn't make it that list. Right? So that for me is like, why I don't coach anymore. I like coaching. I enjoy having conversations with people. I enjoy getting to know people and building relationships. People have come to me for advice my entire life and I don't coach anymore even though I am a certified coach.

Because right now, at this very moment in my life, maybe it'll change in the future. That just doesn't fit the list. And so just because you can doesn't mean you should, and that hell yes, policy helps you kind of figure out the difference. 

Yeah, and to your point, the items on that list can change.

Just because you've said hell yes to something at one point in your life does not mean you have to continue saying yes to it. You get to as your life grows and evolves, shift. The things that are on your list. And I think that is something that we have a hard time doing because we feel like if we've said yes once, we need to keep saying yes.

And I think what a lot of people, physicians in particular, don't realize [00:19:00] is that if you say no to something, it feels like it could be uncomfortable. And so the yes feels easy, right? But when you say yes to escape the discomfort of no, you don't escape saying no.

It's just the person that you're saying no to is typically the priorities that are on your Hell yes list. It's yourself, it's your family. It's the places that you want to be. It's how you wanna be showing up. And so you've said yes to the person that was asking you to do the thing, but you said no to you and the things you actually wanted to be doing.

Yeah, so Michael, you'll be proud of me. So for the first time in almost 40 years of existence, I turned 40. Next month as we're recording this, I sent back a meal at a restaurant. and so people are like normal that are listening to this. You're like, what? Why is that a big deal? So I'm like, by every definition, like a recovering people pleaser.

And so it was the first time I ordered a meal and it was so bad. Like I even asked my friends at the table, I was like, am I making this up? Like this is bad, right? And they're like, please do not eat that. You know? And so I like called the server over. I was like, Hey, excuse me.

Is this what I [00:20:00] ordered? You know, and had a conversation with her about it and, sent it back and the chef actually came out and apologized because it was so bad. But like the reason why is because historically it comes from a good place. I was just so concerned with making other people happy and putting other people above myself.

I was raised in a house where you're supposed to be selfless. And what I didn't realize is that some of the other values that I have for me personally, like integrity and honesty, like everyone will tell you, I am the sort of person where I'm transparent to a fault. Part of what comes with that is that I'm honest.

So if you want an honest opinion on something, ask me. If you don't, please don't. 'cause I'll actually tell you what I think. and so I wasn't being honest with myself in those moments, right? Where it's like, this meal is terrible. Like I should have no reservations to be like, Hey, respectfully, I'm gonna get something else.

This isn't what I expected. But for so many physicians, I think that they are also people pleasers and they are more worried about people pleasing other people and saying, ah, I should say yes here. Maybe the no is uncomfortable, but maybe also what's uncomfortable is the idea you might not make someone happy.

For me, that was always the hesitance about it was, [00:21:00] Hey Jimmy, we're doing the social media thing . We're gonna teach other people like how to build a brand and how to, you know, do that sort of thing. And so I know you've got thousands of people that follow you. I'd love to have you come and talk at this thing, about social media, so other physicians can learn about building their own brand and just getting into this space where it took me years to like, look that person in the eyes and be like, I am so appreciative that you would think of me.

But no, I can't do that. It's not a priority for me at the moment, and you know what, amazingly, on the other side of that, I found the majority of the time, if you're talking to a reasonable human being, it's, they don't get mad at you or upset. They actually have respect for you because they probably have a hard time doing the same thing.

They're like, I can't believe you just said no. Like, he just told me no. Like people don't tell people no. Like, man, I wish I could do that. You know, like that's kinda the response I get most of the time to be honest with you, is people be like, I wish I could be that clear about what my priorities are and tell other people No, 'cause we're just so used to people saying yes.

Right. But. That is something I struggled with for, I don't know, 98% of my life that [00:22:00] I've only recently developed a skill set in. Well, congratulations. I appreciate that you're able to put, that in past tense I am a, work in prog-mess, as, Ted Lasso might say. I totally get it.

Yeah. I mean, and it all does feed back to that, that shoulding that we talked about at the beginning of the episode, the expectations, like what other people think we should be doing and what we think we should be doing. We think we should just be saying yes to every opportunity In medical education and medical culture, you don't say no.

You say yes to opportunities. and if you keep doing that, we burn ourselves out as we are seeing across medical culture right now that we do have to. Reserve some space for ourselves. Yeah. I think Brene Brown is the one that said, you know, shooting yourself into shame. Right. and that ultimately is the result that is produced when you have these should statements that you're expressing.

I think what's hard and honestly I have. I'll give you an example, right? so Wesley has football practice tomorrow. Yes. I'm a physician. Yes. I let my kid play football. You can send me judgmental emails. It's okay. I'll accept them. [00:23:00] and there's also a Wake Forest NC State Football game tomorrow.

At the time they're recording this. And so I've literally been sitting there all day like. Should we go to practice because he has practice and we've committed to that? Or should we go to the game, which both of us want to do more? And there's like this constant battle between like commitments that we've made and desires that we have and what wins out.

And I think it's a interesting process to think through. And in fact, one of the other coaches on the team is like, nah, man, like me and my kid, like, we're skipping practice. We're going to the game, you know? And he just like sends it in the group text and it's just not a thing for him. He like does not care.

Hey other coach, I know you're gonna send me a nastygram back, but I just want you to know me and my kid won't be there. And I'm like, I've been deliberating about this for 72 hours, right? Like, what do I do? And if I do it, what do I say? And I think it really does come down to oftentimes our commitments and our desires are at odds with each other.

And they produce these should statements and those should statements lead to shame, which is really, really hard because there isn't like a right thing to do in those moments. And if we always let our desires win over the [00:24:00] commitments that we've made, that's obviously not a great place to be, in my opinion.

But if we always let the commitments that we've made be ironclad and they could never change, because once you say yes to something, it has to stay Yes, forever. That's obviously also not a healthy place to live. And so for me, like living in that awkward tension in between those two things is where I find myself quite often.

Yeah. And what I noticed about your story is that when somebody else leads the way, it becomes easier, right? When they set an example that it's okay to say like, my kid's not coming to practice. We're gonna do this other thing. It becomes easier for us to be like, yeah, me too, and right. In a lot of ways, you have also kind of led that charge in entrepreneurship for physicians, right?

Like you have become an example of how physicians can lean into entrepreneurship. And when I first met you, Not an entrepreneurial bone in my body. Never a single desire to run a business or figure out how to do all of this stuff. And here we are five [00:25:00] years later as I, try to navigate what it is to be a business owner and how to do all of these things that honestly, I never wanted to learn.

And I'm so glad to be here learning how to do it all. It's. Brought a level of fulfillment back to my life that I didn't realize I was missing. How do you feel? What do you recommend or encourage, or invite physicians to think about physician entrepreneurship? Yes. First of all, I wanna say like, I'm super proud of you.

Like watching your journey has been so fun. And, you know, taking you from the shell that you were in at the very beginning and like cracking outta that and like, okay, I'm gonna explore this world of talking to other people, right? And I'm gonna explore coaching. And then you're like, you know what, I think I'm gonna do coaching too.

And then, you know, joining and like having that coaching process with other coaches and then going and starting your own thing. I think that's such a cool journey to follow and something that you should be so proud of. Entrepreneur, is always such an awkward topic for me, and I'm gonna tell you why.

Because I think being an entrepreneur is harder than being a physician, and it is infinitely more stressful in my world. Maybe not harder [00:26:00] being a physician, that's not the right word, but it is infinitely more stressful to me than doing anesthesia where when I make mistakes, people die. So, you know, Let's just paint the picture there, right? It is not for the faint of heart. that said, entrepreneurship because of that also teaches you lessons that nothing else in life will teach you. And so if you are of the, you know, the more stoic philosophy that the obstacle isn't in the way, the obstacle is the way to success, and actually working through difficulties and things that are hard.

Often produce the best things in your life. Then I would say, even though I just painted that terrible picture of entrepreneurship being super stressful, all of that stress that comes from entrepreneurship teaches you so many things about life, about you, about dealing with negotiations and tough conversations.

How to say no, how not to, cast blame as how? How to figure out where to go when there's no map, right? So to your point, like I didn't really have anybody, for the most part to follow in the business that I was creating. Like I had a personal finance business. The tagline was originally fighting burnout with financial independence.

I always married wellness with personal [00:27:00] finance. I was a personal finance blogger who then stepped into the wellness space with coaching and I was trying to live in these kind of two worlds and make them mesh. And for so long, a lot of that really led to a lot of existential difficulties in my head.

Like, these things don't go together, right? And but to everyone else externally, they're like, no, this takes, this makes tons of sense. Jimmy. This is great. And I'm over here like really struggling for two years and like, I'm like, what? How did these two worlds meet? That sort of thing, but like going through that process allowed me to learn so much about me and my journey and maybe you could have a similar experience if you were a true private practice owner building a business brick and mortar, and you're having to advertise and you're having to build funnels and find patients and that sort of thing.

I think that that experience used to actually happen more often in medicine now than. Than it does now. But for me, it really is the process of learning how to be comfortable with being uncomfortable at the end of the day. That's what entrepreneurship taught me. And if you're willing to do that, the benefits on the other [00:28:00] side can be amazing.

Yeah,it has been my argument that physicians have always been entrepreneurs for the exact reason that you were just laying out, that you used to hang up a shingle and have to find a way to advertise to patients to come and find you. And over the years as we've been fed that, you know, doctors are bad at business and let me do that for you.

I will make this so much easier. You can focus on the thing that you are trained for. We lost an essential piece of what continued to provide fulfillment. Right. As somebody who's, you know, more than 20 years after graduating from medical school, don't tell anybody. you know, I've seen most things, right.

I haven't seen everything, but I've seen most things and I've seen most things a lot of times. Mm-hmm. And so, you know. There starts to become a time where it's like, okay, just like more of the same thing. And I think that that's what entrepreneurship has brought back into my life that I didn't realize was missing, was this ability to [00:29:00] learn new things to try to fail, which, it's hard to admit, it's hard to do and fail publicly, right?

Where other people are watching you fail and you just get to just go back to it and keep going because it's. The thing that you wanna be doing. I've done that so many times and yes. Right, and, if you want to be in this space, right? The man in the arena quote, I know is a quote that speaks to both of us.

Yes. Like the only person who gets to judge are the other people who are in the arena fighting the fight, right? Because other people can be in the stands watching and judging, but the real work, the real credit goes to the people who are fighting in the arena. Yeah, it's something that you can only learn if you are in the arena and classic example of this, right?

So if we're talking about online entrepreneurship, like there are cartoons now, right? Movies, right? that make fun of this and say, Hey, like, don't go look at the comments section, right? but for some of us, like we learned that in real life. And, at the end of the day, like you really [00:30:00] have to.

That's another skillset, right? Like you have physicians that get these online reviews and yet they don't know how to deal with them. And the reason why is 'cause that skillset's never really been developed for them. And yet in the online space, like you have infinitely more, particularly if you have a larger platform, like you have infinitely more comments and negative things that people can say no matter how you say something.

Like, I shared a story one time on a podcast, I'm gonna share it again. and then you can get the negative views because this is your show. I had this prior resident of mine that was going to work and, as he was going to work, hit a deer. This person just happened to be like a super, super outdoorsy hunter kind of guy.

And, he got outta the car this deer is in agony, like clearly going to die. and so. this resident is gonna take out a knife. He has a hunting knife on him. and, you know, give the animal some peace, right? And this woman stops and she starts screaming at him that, you know, he can't do that.

Like, we gotta get this deer to the hospital. And he's like, The neck is broken. like this is not a [00:31:00] salvageable situation. So anyway, like long story short, I, share this story, on my podcast and inevitably there's like some comment about, you know, hey, like, I can't believe that, you know, there's a story and like there's this woman and you know, he was saying like, how crazy she, I was like, first of all, I didn't say she was crazy.

I was just saying like she was clearly having a very difficult time with this person trying to provide this end of life to this deer. and so like if you live in this space, like you can, like share stories that you think are completely benign and safe and fine. But there's always gonna be the hater that's out there.

And I didn't learn how to deal with that stuff, like negative criticism. I always struggled with that so much my entire life until basically entrepreneurial work taught me if you are successful, you are going to have haters. Right? That is just a part of the process. and so you cannot wade into these waters and expect to like come out. With no bruises or battle scars, that's just not something that is gonna happen. And yet every time that something like that happens, I think, man, this would be really helpful for doctors that have, because I'm an anesthesiologist, I don't get online reviews, but I [00:32:00] know some doctors get online reviews.

Maybe in my world the closest is like pain physicians who have a certain patient population that you can imagine leaves scathing reviews online. And, they have a hard time with it. 'cause like, no, like I'm a good doctor, I'm trying to do the right thing. I can't believe this person left this review.

And for me, like I never would've learned that skillset of dealing with criticism like true criticism, public criticism where people are saying terrible things about you if it weren't for entrepreneur work. and at the same time, like I'm incredibly grateful for that. 'cause it's a skillset that I now have where it's like, you know what?

Maybe that person's having a bad day. Like, I don't know. Like there's all sorts of narratives that I can spend now that I have skills to deal with and say, you know what, maybe this person is having a bad day, which wasn't their best moment. You know, I'm sure that I've said things in my life too that are not kind about other people.

Right. and I can provide that person grace and just completely release it from like, having any meaning on my life. but it's to your point, the sort of thing that you have to be in the arena to experience both the difficulties of it, but also the amazing benefits that come from doing this [00:33:00] kind of work.

Even if you fail, even if you fail, you will learn, which is ultimately. Goal, and you reminded me something earlier too about just, you know, the idea of growth. I think that for me, that's what I see most physicians really struggle with, is they get to that mid-career spot and they're like, you know, I have seen these things over and over and over again, and it really is just becoming, you know, second nature to me.

And they get bored and they have this inkling in the back of their mind, like, I need to make a change. I need to do something different. And really what that is that human beings are meant to grow. You're meant to change. You're meant to do something different. You're meant to learn.

It reminds me of, you know, the man's search for meaning, you know, in that book. And just the idea, like the people in the concentration camp that didn't make it assume that they, you know, beat the odds of landing in a destination where they didn't, find an end otherwise. Like they typically, where they lost their purpose, they didn't have a meaning for life, they didn't have a reason to grow.

And you see this in retirees when they retire and they become depressed and all that sort of stuff. And so, if you have that inkling. You have that itch. You know, sometimes the best way to scratch it is through entrepreneurship where the entire idea is you see a problem, go create a [00:34:00] solution and try to fix it.

Yeah. I love that. I know as we're talking, we're both thinking about all of these other things. So I will say, I started out also with blogging, and I remember the first time somebody commented on one of my blogs and called me a Quack Uhhuh, which was the first time in my life I had ever been called a quack.

And I remember you telling me, you can be ignored or you can have haters. You get to choose, right? Yeah. Like nobody knows you exist. Right? Or you can have haters. Those are the two options. And so, yep. I would much rather get a negative comment and people know that my work is out there and that I'm doing my part, than just to be ignored and fading in, in the background. And then going back to what you were just saying so what advice would you give somebody who is aching toward like the boredom and trying to figure out like maybe physician entrepreneurship? Maybe not, I don't know. What do you suggest? Where do people start? So it depends on what they're trying to do.

I think the [00:35:00] worst place to be is what I call a Joby, right? So if you're creating entrepreneurship to create cash flow, to create revenue in your life, obviously that, that is, let's just call it a job, even though it's not a job, you're the boss. When you're an entrepreneur. Another benefit, 

The other side we're like, you know what, I'm gonna do this because I just enjoy it. I love spending my time doing this. It can make me absolutely no money, and I would still enjoy doing this for me. That is called pickleball. It makes me no money, but I really enjoy it. That is a hobby. What you don't want is a jobby, which is somewhere in those two.

Combined worlds where you're like, ah, I mean I'm gonna do this thing, and like maybe it'll make some money. Like you will invariably 99% of the time quit that like six months from now when things are hard or 12 months from you get that negative review or you haven't made any money, or in fact you've put $10,000 in this idea and it's made, it is nothing.

Right. You're gonna be like, I quit, I'm done. This is not worth it. This is total waste of time. And it's 'cause it was a Joby, right? Whereas if you said, you know what, I'm gonna commit the next three years. To doing this thing, I'm gonna put $10,000 into this, whatever, and I'm just gonna see how it goes and I'm gonna put the work in.

I'm gonna show up every week consistently. I'm gonna publish that podcast every [00:36:00] single week on the dot. I'm gonna do the things that I've set out to do. You give yourself enough time to like actually have that experience and grow. And so I think first you need to decide like, is this a hobby or is this something that you're trying to create income from?

Is the purpose of this to cut back from medicine and you need to make up for the money you're losing there by doing that is the purpose of this just to find growth and meaning and purpose, and just have a hobby, that's totally fine. But defining from the outset what that is, I think is really important.

If you decide that it is an entrepreneurial endeavor, I think the first start is to always figure out like, what am I good at? Right. and I think that the best way to answer that question, there's a few, one of them is to say like, what do people come to me for advice for like. You know, it doesn't take anybody long in my life to realize like, Hey, like what is Jimmy good at?

Well, Jimmy spends 99.9% of days at some point during the day talking about personal finance that will come up every single day of my life. No matter what I do, where I go, who I'm around, I will get a text to phone [00:37:00] call, an in-person conversation about some random financial question. The reason why is because I like learning about money and I'm really good at teaching it.

And so that for me became like, oh. I should start a business, right? Because, like, I want to teach people about personal finance. you know, another way to think through this is what is easy for you? That is hard for other people. And I think people take this one for granted. 'cause they're like, well, no, nobody would pay me to do that.

That's so easy. And it's like, well, maybe it's easy for you with a skillset and experience and education that you have. It could be very, very hard for other people. And the reason that that matters is because in the world of entrepreneurship, it's an upside-down world. Your time is not correlated with the money that you make.

You make money based on value that you provide. And so I can work less in a business and make more than someone else by providing value from my experiences, from my education, from the way that I think through things. And so what is easy for you? That is hard for other people. And so once you define like how much profit do you need coming from [00:38:00] this thing?

Like is it zero 'cause it's a hobby, or do you need to have $50,000 a year to cut back? 20% from your job. And then you figure out what am I good at? You also have to look at, okay, you know, what is needed out there? Like, is this a problem that people actually want to solve? And I think that that's probably the hardest thing to do in this whole puzzle to figure out really.

And the reason why is because. It is super, super common. ask me how I know to build something that you are like, people are gonna love it. It's gonna be a great idea. They're gonna buy it like hotcakes. And then they don't, and they're like, okay, I'm gonna solve that problem. You know, I'm gonna solve that problem.

I'm gonna go talk to my people, my target audience, and I'm gonna ask them what they want. And then you build exactly what they say and then they still don't want it. 'cause humans are human. They don't know what they want. Right? And so it, it turns out that, that becomes a bit of a trial and error. As it goes, you know, which is why you need to make that commitment.

Like, I'm gonna do this for two years. I'm gonna do this for three years, and then if after three years I haven't reached a goal, then I'll hang it up or I'll do something different, right? But it really comes down to those three things. How Much money are we talking about? How much profit do you need to come from this thing?

Like, what is your natural propensity? [00:39:00] You know, and do people need this? Like, are you solving an actual problem, or. Not right, because there's certain problems that people have that they would not pay money for to have solved. A hundred percent. Just depends on the situation, you know?

Yeah. and I think, for physicians it's important to also understand that, you know, medical education, medical training is very linear and there is no linearity to entrepreneurship and it's all over the place. And you have to be willing to pivot, move, do things, and so yes to what are you good at?

What are you willing to be uncomfortable learning how to do? Because there's a lot of discomfort in entrepreneurship and that's the growth, that's where the growth is that we were talking about. And you have to be willing to see your way through the discomfort to the other side in order to build the business, because there are things that we're good at and then there is a lot that you have to learn along the way.

I've learned that. Yeah. And, I think getting that space where you were saying. Hey, [00:40:00] I know that I have some natural ability at this thing, but also to your point, because you are gonna learn so much and you have to learn so much, it is equally important to have a passion about whatever problem you're trying to solve, right?

Am I passionate enough to deal with the discomfort, to deal with the unknown, to learn new things that I don't currently know? I mean, I definitely didn't learn how to build a website or, you know, build a podcast or courses or any of that stuff in medical training, right? and we don't even talk about money, you know?

And so, for somebody to be able to overcome that, it has to have enough potential, or you have to be passionate enough, ideally both to really pursue something. Well, I've loved this. I enjoyed catching up with you so much. tell the listeners where they can find you and where they can listen to more of  Dr. Jimmy Turner. So if you want to hear my voice and me ramble more than I just did today, you can go to Money Meets Medicine, which is the name of the podcast host each week on Wednesdays. And we talk about personal finance topics, career topics in medicine, [00:41:00] and there's a website, money meets medicine.com.

You can check that out as well. Awesome. Dr. Jimmy Turner, thank you so much. for being a pivotal part of my journey. Thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate you. And to the listeners, thank you so much for being here today. I will see you next time on Better Physician Life.

Take care.